Back to [Archive] Post-review discussions

[ODP] The Scandinavian WAIS IV Matrices as a Test of Dutton, te Nijenhuis and Rovaine
I'm new to this discussion, so I may be asking a stupid question. Is it possible that the difference in performance between Finland and Sweden reflects differences in truancy? Finland seems to have a harsh policy on truant pupils. According to Wikipedia, "In Finland truant pupils usually get detention in comprehensive schools." Since such pupils would be excluded from the study, and since they probably represent a lower IQ sub-population, this factor would raise the mean IQ of those Finnish pupils under study.

It may be that the Swedish minority in Finland follows Sweden's more permissive attitudes toward truancy, and this would result in a study population that has a somewhat lower mean IQ.
Actually, I may have it backwards. If the Swedish were more permissive toward truancy, it would be easier for truants to remove themselves from the study population and thereby raise the apparent mean IQ. So to make my explanation work, the Finns would have to be more permissive, unless their policy of detention had the same effect of removing lower-IQ individuals from the regular schools.
Admin
But the Scandinavian data is from all three Scandinavian countries, not just Sweden. Their results are comparable too. The Swedish Finns also get lower scores. I don't see how truancy could explain that.
Yes, but in the course of history Sweden, Norway, and Denmark have inherited similar educational practices. Norway has alternated between being part of Denmark and part of Sweden. I would expect Finland to be more of an outlier. I would also expect that the Swedish-speaking minority in Finland would tend to imitate educational practices in Sweden (because of the common language).

Finland seems to be an outlier with respect to other Nordic countries in the way it punishes truant pupils. In Finland, such pupils are sent to a special school, whereas in the Scandinavian countries they are kept as much as possible in the regular school system. This would have the effect of removing more low-IQ students from regular schools in Finland than from regular schools in other Nordic countries.

I may be making a big deal out of nothing, but has anyone looked into this factor?
Hi Peter. Thanks for your idea of truancy. I cannot any evidence that this issue has been researched with regard to a possible influence on PISA. Also my understanding is that there is huge variation in how Finnish truants are dealt between schools http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/598-schools-and-child-welfare-authorities-at-odds-over-truancy.html

and I can find no evidence that they are sent to 'special schools.' As much as possible Finland integrates everybody into a comprehensive system. I am absolutely certain, for example, that there is no 'special school' in the large Finnish city that I live in. So, although it's an interesting possibility I don't think it's relevant to the Finnish PISA score and I'm not even sure there is a significant policy difference between Finland and Scandinavia on truancy. They are all quite lax whereas in the UK, for example, truancy can result in expulsion from school, which may be why the rates there are quite low according to the OECD rport, 'Who are the truants?'






Yes, but in the course of history Sweden, Norway, and Denmark have inherited similar educational practices. Norway has alternated between being part of Denmark and part of Sweden. I would expect Finland to be more of an outlier. I would also expect that the Swedish-speaking minority in Finland would tend to imitate educational practices in Sweden (because of the common language).

Finland seems to be an outlier with respect to other Nordic countries in the way it punishes truant pupils. In Finland, such pupils are sent to a special school, whereas in the Scandinavian countries they are kept as much as possible in the regular school system. This would have the effect of removing more low-IQ students from regular schools in Finland than from regular schools in other Nordic countries.

I may be making a big deal out of nothing, but has anyone looked into this factor?
Differences in the truancy rate can have an impact. We see this in the apparent difference in mean IQ between the former West and East Germany. Different truancy rates may also make the black/white IQ difference look smaller than it really is. In the case of Finland vs. the other Nordic states, I've been unable to find anything substantial in the literature. As you say, there seem to be similar policies on truancy in all the Nordic states.

So I give my approval for publication of this manuscript. Good luck!
Ok, thanks for your suggestions.
Admin
That's 4 approvals. Unless there are objections I will move ahead with publication when I get the opportunity.
Could you possibly correct the following:

p.1. The original submission date was 2nd September 2014 not '1st of August.'

p.1. The submission and acceptance dates should not include 'of'.

p.4. There is a big empty space at the top of p.4. Please remove it.

p.6. The subtitle 'Discussion' is at the bottom of the page and should be at the top of the next page.

p.9. The subtitle 'References' is at the bottom of the page and should be moved to the next page.

p.11. The subtitle 'Acknowledgements' is at the bottom of the page and should be moved to the next page.

The submission date then needs to be corrected a second time.







I had already added them.

Does this look reasonable to you?

http://openpsych.net/ODP/2014/11/fluid-g-in-scandinavia-and-finland-comparing-results-from-pisa-creative-problem-solving-and-the-wais-iv-matrices-subtest/
Admin
Can you upload a PDF here that fits what you want?

Submission date is 1st of 9th month (server time, which is what counts, check the first post in this thread). I had mistankenly translated 9th to August, when it is September.
Here it is as a word file. I presume you have the facility to make it a pdf.

Can you upload a PDF here that fits what you want?

Submission date is 1st of 9th month (server time, which is what counts, check the first post in this thread). I had mistankenly translated 9th to August, when it is September.
Admin
I do not. Also, the submission time is wrongly given as 2nd of September. It is the 1st of September (see: http://openpsych.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=140).
It says: 09-02-2014, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014 01:05 PM by Emil.). How do you normally make the word files into pdfs then?
here is pdf. i found a way of doing it online.
Admin
It says: 09-02-2014, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014 01:05 PM by Emil.). How do you normally make the word files into pdfs then?


The reason for this is that you set your time-zone to GMT+10 (Mebourne time). Mine and the server is GMT+1 which is what the journal also uses. Dates are given per server time. In this case, this means it is 1st of Sep.

I am currently in Leipzig visiting my girlfriend and do not have Microsoft Office installed on my computer (laptop). For this reason, there are slight formating difficulties when opening proprietary formats such as .docx.

Google Drive can save PDFs, so it is pretty easy for you.

Please upload a PDF with the correct date and I will correct the published PDF as soon as possible.
Here you go.

It says: 09-02-2014, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2014 01:05 PM by Emil.). How do you normally make the word files into pdfs then?


The reason for this is that you set your time-zone to GMT+10 (Mebourne time). Mine and the server is GMT+1 which is what the journal also uses. Dates are given per server time. In this case, this means it is 1st of Sep.

I am currently in Leipzig visiting my girlfriend and do not have Microsoft Office installed on my computer (laptop). For this reason, there are slight formating difficulties when opening proprietary formats such as .docx.

Google Drive can save PDFs, so it is pretty easy for you.

Please upload a PDF with the correct date and I will correct the published PDF as soon as possible.
Admin
I had asked Meisenberg to comment on this paper as it was lacking an approval before. Here's his comments:

Hi Emil,

I finally got the time to look at these papers. Both are interesting and should be published. Here some comments and suggestions, first for the Dutton paper about PISA and WAIS-IV:

1. Perhaps I overlooked it, but I did not find any mention of the date of the WAIS-IV standardization in the United States. I know it was pretty recent, but people who want to compare the IQs will want to know whether there any Flynn effect adjusted is needed when comparing the countries.

2. On top of page 2 you mention happiness as one of the correlates of IQ. In my experience, there is no positive correlation between IQ and happiness at the country level when per capita GDP is controlled, and there seem to be similar observations at the individual level. In other words, if we want to make people happy we should give them money, but not try to make them brighter. The other listed correlates do have specific relationships with IQ although some (e.g., corruption) are related more closely to GDP than to IQ.

3. Why are you using only the matrices test of the WAIS? Why not all subtests that measure reasoning ability and have not been modified to an extent that makes them uncomparable?

4. In Tables 1 and 2 you list the age ranges. Is the gap between age 39 and 45 intended, or should the 35-39 range actually be 35-44?

5. One way of estimating relative Flynn effects is to compare the performance of different age groups in cross-sectional studies. In Table 1 I see that the Finnish IQs (with USA as reference) are pretty constant at about 103 or 104 at all ages, suggesting that Flynn effects in Finland were about as big as in the USA. The Scandinavian sample in Table 2 has the highest IQs in the older age groups. This would indicate that Scandinavians born around the middle of the 20th century were brighter than Americans, but that they have lost much of this advantage since then. Is this an observation worth mentioning, or are sample size so small that random noise is the more likely explanation?

6. Bottom of page 4: The Greenwich meridian is not so much for international time comparisons (only indirectly), but mainly the reference point for degrees of longitude.

7. First line on page 5: The formula would more simply be expressed as IQ = (CPS - 517) x 15/96 + 100.

8. On page 6 you average PISA and WAIS with weighting for sample size, which is much larger for PISA than for WAIS. Here you have to consider that there is not only random measurement error, which is reduced by increased sample size. You also have to expect systematic error by non-representativeness of samples. Therefore it may actually be better to average the two with equal weight given to each. Or better, keep them separate and see if you can explain differences by the fact that we are dealing her with different cohorts: 15-year-olds in PISA, and adults for WAIS. If Scandinavians but not Finns do worse on PISA than on WAIS, this may indicate recent anti-Flynn effects in Scandinavia but not Finland. Perhaps the inflection point where the Flynn effect changes from positive to negative has been reached earlier in Scandinavia than in Finland.


Since the paper has 4 approvals, these suggestions are not mandatory.